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	<title>Comments on: We don&#039;t really say that in English&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/</link>
	<description>On Japanese language and culture</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:29:42 +0900</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-791</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 01:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There are no old posts on this site!  :)  Everything is an ongoing conversation.

I particularly like the Korean word &#039;han&#039; which isn&#039;t very translatable, but means something like simmering discord for lack of justice, or pent up feelings of remorse.  It&#039;s really an important part of the Korean identity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no old posts on this site!  <img src='http://www.victorymanual.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Everything is an ongoing conversation.</p>
<p>I particularly like the Korean word &#8216;han&#8217; which isn&#8217;t very translatable, but means something like simmering discord for lack of justice, or pent up feelings of remorse.  It&#8217;s really an important part of the Korean identity.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-790</guid>
		<description>i just noticed this is a super(relative) old post..ㅋㅋ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just noticed this is a super(relative) old post..ㅋㅋ</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-789</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-789</guid>
		<description>the only thing that can happen in translation is loss of information.. an exact translation(rare if not a basic-intermediate textbook level sentence) or adding of information that wasn&#039;t there.. it&#039;s not a big deal.. there&#039;s concepts that didn&#039;t exist in english that come from asian languages(and i suspect other languages) like chi/gi.. or how about tao/dao? unless of course.. i&#039;m completely wrong... or maybe just some wrong..

and language isn&#039;t real.. i mean.. it&#039;s just a bunch of symbols for conveying concepts in our head..(or wherever they are) so i think some things aren&#039;t even conveyable in any language.. just my thoughts... unless.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the only thing that can happen in translation is loss of information.. an exact translation(rare if not a basic-intermediate textbook level sentence) or adding of information that wasn&#8217;t there.. it&#8217;s not a big deal.. there&#8217;s concepts that didn&#8217;t exist in english that come from asian languages(and i suspect other languages) like chi/gi.. or how about tao/dao? unless of course.. i&#8217;m completely wrong&#8230; or maybe just some wrong..</p>
<p>and language isn&#8217;t real.. i mean.. it&#8217;s just a bunch of symbols for conveying concepts in our head..(or wherever they are) so i think some things aren&#8217;t even conveyable in any language.. just my thoughts&#8230; unless&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-46</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the 文字化け, but moving my site to a new server destroyed the comments.

I will say, though, that there are other terms to trip us up when translating to English, including 住む and 暮らす.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the 文字化け, but moving my site to a new server destroyed the comments.</p>
<p>I will say, though, that there are other terms to trip us up when translating to English, including 住む and 暮らす.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not saying that you can&#039;t produce something that works, but I&#039;m saying that sometimes you can&#039;t express the exact same feelings that come from either language, which is why translations themselves are considered works of art - The translators have to adapt a story into a different language.

For example,
空が高いな - We don&#039;t have this phrase in English.  A translator would probably use instead, &quot;Fall is in the air.&quot;  It works, and it&#039;s natural, but it&#039;s not the same nuance.

Another example would be addressing the people around you as 兄貴 or お姉さん when they aren&#039;t related to you.  We simply don&#039;t do that in English.  We can&#039;t express the subtleties of 君, ちゃん, さん, 様, 氏, etc.  We have to be explicit when we translate てめぇ - Sometimes even to the point where you see the term &quot;you bastard&quot; applied.  The story translates, but the exact same feelings don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that you can&#8217;t produce something that works, but I&#8217;m saying that sometimes you can&#8217;t express the exact same feelings that come from either language, which is why translations themselves are considered works of art &#8211; The translators have to adapt a story into a different language.</p>
<p>For example,<br />
空が高いな &#8211; We don&#8217;t have this phrase in English.  A translator would probably use instead, &#8220;Fall is in the air.&#8221;  It works, and it&#8217;s natural, but it&#8217;s not the same nuance.</p>
<p>Another example would be addressing the people around you as 兄貴 or お姉さん when they aren&#8217;t related to you.  We simply don&#8217;t do that in English.  We can&#8217;t express the subtleties of 君, ちゃん, さん, 様, 氏, etc.  We have to be explicit when we translate てめぇ &#8211; Sometimes even to the point where you see the term &#8220;you bastard&#8221; applied.  The story translates, but the exact same feelings don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Err, I just remembered my point:  There is no such thing as translating without context, and with context you have a vehicle for expressing that lost nuance.  Like maybe I would say &quot;Exchange students live in the International Dormitory.  Here they enjoy Japanese food, practice their newly-learned Japanese phrases, and socialize with other students from around the world.&quot;  So while 生活する turned into boring-old &quot;live,&quot; the nuance of &quot;lifestyle&quot; or whatever you want to call it is carried by the surrounding content.

So picking one sentence out, saying &quot;there is some mystical &lt;em&gt;je ne sais quoi&lt;/em&gt; that cannot be translated&quot; and throwing your hands up in the air is a bit hasty.  A good translator translates meaning, not words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Err, I just remembered my point:  There is no such thing as translating without context, and with context you have a vehicle for expressing that lost nuance.  Like maybe I would say &#8220;Exchange students live in the International Dormitory.  Here they enjoy Japanese food, practice their newly-learned Japanese phrases, and socialize with other students from around the world.&#8221;  So while 生活する turned into boring-old &#8220;live,&#8221; the nuance of &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; or whatever you want to call it is carried by the surrounding content.</p>
<p>So picking one sentence out, saying &#8220;there is some mystical <em>je ne sais quoi</em> that cannot be translated&#8221; and throwing your hands up in the air is a bit hasty.  A good translator translates meaning, not words.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-43</guid>
		<description>生活する has a nuance of &quot;going about one&#039;s daily business,&quot; as opposed to 住む which is closer to &quot;reside (in).&quot;  But given no external context at all, I would translate both sentences as &quot;(They) live in the international dorms.&quot;

One problem here is that different words are used in different contexts.  While both 住む and 生活する  can both be translated as &quot;live,&quot; the contexts in which you see them are very different.  生活する sounds more formal, more likely to be used in writing than casual speech.  住む is very casual, bare-bones, matter-of-fact.

So I would expect to see ???????????? in a pamphlet for prospective students, and I might translate it as &quot;Exchange students live and study in the International Dormitory.&quot;  And I would expect to hear ??????????? in a conversation where an exchange student is introducing himself, and I would translate it as &quot;I live in the international dorms.&quot;

I&#039;m rambling now.  I hope that made sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>生活する has a nuance of &#8220;going about one&#8217;s daily business,&#8221; as opposed to 住む which is closer to &#8220;reside (in).&#8221;  But given no external context at all, I would translate both sentences as &#8220;(They) live in the international dorms.&#8221;</p>
<p>One problem here is that different words are used in different contexts.  While both 住む and 生活する  can both be translated as &#8220;live,&#8221; the contexts in which you see them are very different.  生活する sounds more formal, more likely to be used in writing than casual speech.  住む is very casual, bare-bones, matter-of-fact.</p>
<p>So I would expect to see ???????????? in a pamphlet for prospective students, and I might translate it as &#8220;Exchange students live and study in the International Dormitory.&#8221;  And I would expect to hear ??????????? in a conversation where an exchange student is introducing himself, and I would translate it as &#8220;I live in the international dorms.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m rambling now.  I hope that made sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-42</guid>
		<description>So then what do you feel is the nuanced difference between the following two sentences, and how would you produce natural English sentences that carried the nuance over in translation?

?????????????
????????????

I may just be overlooking it, but I&#039;m pretty sure I&#039;m not, because ???? has never felt like it&#039;s something we say in English.  (By the way, I asked native speakers in both Korean [my wife] and Japanese [my co-worker], and the sentences above have slightly different nuances.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So then what do you feel is the nuanced difference between the following two sentences, and how would you produce natural English sentences that carried the nuance over in translation?</p>
<p>?????????????<br />
????????????</p>
<p>I may just be overlooking it, but I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;m not, because ???? has never felt like it&#8217;s something we say in English.  (By the way, I asked native speakers in both Korean [my wife] and Japanese [my co-worker], and the sentences above have slightly different nuances.)</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-41</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t speak to the Korean here, but with the Japanese your post seems to be predicated on the idea that just because &quot;lifestyle&quot; can be translated as ??, ?? should properly be backtranslated as &quot;lifestyle.&quot;  This is clearly not the case, and here I would say that there is no special nuance of &quot;lifestyle&quot; that is lost when translating from the Japanese ???? to the English &quot;live.&quot;

You&#039;re right, there are often nuances that are hard or impossible to translate.  But I think you&#039;re overthinking this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t speak to the Korean here, but with the Japanese your post seems to be predicated on the idea that just because &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; can be translated as ??, ?? should properly be backtranslated as &#8220;lifestyle.&#8221;  This is clearly not the case, and here I would say that there is no special nuance of &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; that is lost when translating from the Japanese ???? to the English &#8220;live.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, there are often nuances that are hard or impossible to translate.  But I think you&#8217;re overthinking this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Mondello</title>
		<link>http://www.victorymanual.com/we-dont-really-say-that-in-english/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Mondello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://victorymanual.wordpress.com/?p=875#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Your post reminded me of the very current Korean phrase ?????, literally &#039;lifestyle-ize&#039;, i.e. &#039;make something a part of your lifestyle/routine&#039;.

This construction seems to be used most commonly in PSAs, as in the third result when you look up &#039;??? ???&#039; in Google: ??? ????? ?????? (Let&#039;s make self checks for testicular cancer a regular part of our lives)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post reminded me of the very current Korean phrase ?????, literally &#8216;lifestyle-ize&#8217;, i.e. &#8216;make something a part of your lifestyle/routine&#8217;.</p>
<p>This construction seems to be used most commonly in PSAs, as in the third result when you look up &#8216;??? ???&#8217; in Google: ??? ????? ?????? (Let&#8217;s make self checks for testicular cancer a regular part of our lives)</p>
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